Curse

DreamWind · Sep 12, 2007, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

Good watch. I never realised that those events were so popular with as many spectators and Mike O'brien and Jeff Strain were extremely enthusiastic and seem to be pleased with what they have achieved.

Yea that is one of the points im trying emphasize. They made this seem like a complete success, yet did a 180 and completely ran away from it.

Now whether or not you want to blame PvE for the decline is a step farther. I could make that argument. For now I'm just making the argument that PvP was their original direction for the game, but they are going a different direction nowadays.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EternalTempest

The lead dev actually admitted pve was developed 1st in an interview. That being said, the pvp 1st vs pve 1st is irrelevant.

The other part of this was to show this wrong. I have video evidence of an Anet founder saying what the game was built as. It is also fairly recent, and not some typed out statement from like 3 years ago.

EternalTempest · Sep 12, 2007, 07:16 AM // 07:16

A statement from one of the high up people in anet during a tournament vs an interview from one of the high up dev's giving conflicting information. That video is 3 clips put together and designed as a pvp against pve perspective as well.

Your could be taking his words "built gw up for this, this is what it's about" out of context. It could be describing pvp or the fact of the fun and challenge (skill vs grind) or the fact they had very successful tournaments and how awesome it was. The fact is with that statement we both can "run with it".

Pvp 1st vs Pve 1st which developed 1st is irrelevant. No matter what they thougt while making the game, they decided to do both as a finished product.

Looking at my original guildwars per-order box...

Summary / parafrased from box
Skill vs Grind - battling monsters to fulfill a quest or working with guildmates to reach highest lvls of tournament play. Rewards skill and teamwork > hours played.

Having fun
gw focus on fun - fighting monsters, playing with or against other players, finding that next great item.

When GW launched it was made to be an experiment that allows pve and pvp.
After the 1st verions of the game.

Faction introduce less "serious" competition in the form of AB/AvA in what I feel to help "bridge" the gap between the pvp vs pve crowd.

Pan to nightfall.... they added hero battles.... which allowed for a psuod form of 1v1 comabt

Now to Eotn.... you have 10-12 new pvp skill per job ... that's it.

They have stated there thoughts on GW2 will be as follow

Pve with greatly expanded lvl system
Pve get some form of pvp that tell me it's going to be "less serious" then the next item
PvP "structured/balanced"

This prevents the player thinning across each new chapter - "ghost towns"
Keeps it so they can balance the serious pvp and the pve skills seperate from each other
Appeal to wider audience.

Gw wars is what is it, play the way you want to play and see if Gw2 appeals with you.

arcanemacabre · Sep 12, 2007, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Which came first: the chicken or the egg?

Answer: Doesn't matter, they're both tasty.

Komes I · Sep 12, 2007, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Allthough i am mainly PvE player i would rather like to see one more of those kind of competitions than get a free Req 9 Cristalline Sword. Or learn to spell.

Avarre · Sep 12, 2007, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilebill

What happened was a strange contradiction in game design. First PvE and PvP were separate, which is fine. No problem with that decision.

Actually, at first PvE progressed into PvP. What then happened was they began in design to split, while still retaining the same skillset for a practically different game.

RSGashapon · Sep 12, 2007, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

So says you. I think otherwise. Competing against other teams is MUCH more fun than grinding stupid AI.

As for video games as sports, have you heard of CPL before? Here's a link so you can educate yourself.

I already know about the CPL, and I still don't see the point of it.

Me + video games = part time entertainment
You + video games = full time employment

Yup, the CPL can really hold a candle to the MBA, the NFL, the NHL, PGA... I remember reading an article (not that long ago, but Google is letting me down) about how "professional" gaming will never become a national sport, or should even be considered a sport in the first place. You don't see it broadcast on television nearly as widespread as althetic sports, because pro-gaming is a "sport" that no one really notices.

Hell Raiser · Sep 12, 2007, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Even if Guild Wars was originally based around PvP, ArenaNet realized that most of the player base play PvE. And since PvEers love new content, they are the majority of Anet's income. Besides that, they were trying to build a bridge between PvP and PvE, and there's no way that was going to work out. They should have completely separated them, skills and all, imo.

PS: The CPL... are you serious? A video game is not a sport. lmao.

DreamWind · Sep 12, 2007, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Which came first: the chicken or the egg?

Answer: Doesn't matter, they're both tasty.

See I would agree with you and not even have posted this...except for one problem.

Let's assume PvP is the chicken and PvE is the egg.

According to most given evidence, the chicken came first and the egg came along with it. Thus to get to the chicken you had to go through the egg. People wanting chicken still went through the egg to get to the glorious chicken though.

Now...most people decided they liked the egg instead, so God (or whoever created both the chicken and egg) decided to screw over the chicken and people who liked the chicken by giving most of its attention to the egg to a point where the chicken as it used to be known NO LONGER exists.

These clips are showing that the chicken came first (according to the creator) and the chicken is no longer what it used to be (it used to be great now its support is almost gone). Whether or not thats the eggs fault or the creators fault or both is up for discussion, but its almost impossible to argue that the chicken is still as great as it once was.

Uh...did that I say that right?

yesitsrob · Sep 12, 2007, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Good times.

There's just far superior competitive games to Guild Wars that actually do reward skill.

arcanemacabre · Sep 12, 2007, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

See I would agree with you and not even have posted this...except for one problem.

I still have yet to see any consistent explanation from anyone about why they think PvP sucks now (compared to then). I've heard lots of theories and opinions being thrown around, but from the looks of it, it seems like the biggest factor is that all the "old school pros" moved on to greener (and more competitive) pastures (games) - which means less and less people playing PvP overall.

So it seems to me that the chicken is no longer in favor simply because there's not enough people eating chicken these days. People love to find the blame for these kinds of things, but truth is, it's likely no one thing, and it's likely not Anet's fault.

...and come on, professional video game players? Unless everyone had the exact same equipment (computer hardware and internet connection), there were strict guidelines and rules, and most importantly - the game was unchanging and without bugs from the start, then maybe. Until that day, there will always be HUGE barriers blocking any kind of professional play for any video game.

Ghost Recon · Sep 12, 2007, 08:47 AM // 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSGashapon

I already know about the CPL, and I still don't see the point of it.

Me + video games = part time entertainment
You + video games = full time employment

Yup, the CPL can really hold a candle to the MBA, the NFL, the NHL, PGA... I remember reading an article (not that long ago, but Google is letting me down) about how "professional" gaming will never become a national sport, or should even be considered a sport in the first place. You don't see it broadcast on television nearly as widespread as althetic sports, because pro-gaming is a "sport" that no one really notices.

In South Korea, it is broadcast on TV and it is starting to become main stream in Europe and America. More and more events are happening with more players taking part than ever before, the price money has also increased a lot over the years. Welcome to the future.

darkrunner25 · Sep 12, 2007, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

I still have yet to see any consistent explanation from anyone about why they think PvP sucks now (compared to then).

The #1 reason PvP is in decline/near death is very simple and has been mentioned before.

The longer this game runs the less accessible PvP becomes to new players.

As it stands right now a new player who wants to pick up Guild Wars and play PvP has to spend $120 for the Prophecies/Factions/Nightfall PvP packs. Even then he will not have any runes/weapon mods/insignia's unlocked.

Then what does he do? Completes the training missions and the zaishen challenge and unlocks Random Arenas? Now he's in RA, he's got 10 different classes with 10 different secondaries to choose from. Thousands of different skills, weapons, armor, runes, insignia's to choose from.

So lets say he chooses a class and some skills and manages to win 5 matches in RA eventually (without getting disillusioned with the game due to the horrid state of RA). Now he's unlocked Team Arenas. Is anyone in TA going to let this guy into their team? Even if he manages to get into some pug group, the minute they ask him to Ctrl-click his skill bar he will be laughed out of the group and replaced.

So by some miracle he manages to win 5 consecutive in TA before he uninstalls. Now he has Heroes Ascent unlocked. There is absolutely ZERO chance this guy will get into ANY HA group, honestly. If he isn't completely ignored for having 0 fame he will again be kicked from any group that asks him to run some standard build that he will have no clue about.

So what are his options now? Join a pvp guild? Even the low level pvp guilds are asking for R6+ or Champion titles these days. So what guild can he join? A PvE guild, but are any PvE guild recruiting in The Great Temple of Balthazaar? No, so he /uninstalls and buys WoW.

For a brand new GW player with no friends in the game is there really any other way this scenario could play out? Lets face it, even the most hardcore of PvP players got their start in PvE. Playing the PvE campaign is the best and only way to learn to play your class, and in the beginning the only way to unlock the stuff you needed for PvP.

The only way to breathe new life into GW PvP in my opinion is for Anet to release a $40 PvP pack that is FULLY UNLOCKED. Every skill, weapon mod, insignia and inscription from every campaign. Even that probably isn't enough, somehow PvP needs to become more accessible, and I dont have that answer.

Sorry for the long read I got carried away.

-Phantom.

warren_kn · Sep 12, 2007, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost Recon

In South Korea, it is broadcast on TV and it is starting to become main stream in Europe and America. More and more events are happening with more players taking part than ever before, the price money has also increased a lot over the years. Welcome to the future.

Um, whereabouts in Europe? I have yet to see televised video game tournaments. Mind you I DID see that a televised backgammon tournament was on TV the other day so it does prove that you can put any crap on and it will have an audience so video game tournaments can't be too far away. However, as someone already said, it will never be a sport, CPL or otherwise.

Sparks Dawnbringer · Sep 12, 2007, 10:14 AM // 10:14

As a die hard PvE who has taken a turn in PvP ther just was nothing to keep me going back. It was just boring. The arenas are mostly the same and there are only a few battle styles. Then there is no reward. Faction unlocks who needs unlocks. I am sure most everything is unlocked on my account. And if you do unlock something with faction you can only use it in PvP. I wish I could sell my Balthazar faction for an item like amber, or sell it to another player.

Almost every cool animation is a PvP one. No one ever got a gold border on their cape for PvE. Can't get into the cheap stores for PvE. Can't get a gold glowing wolf for getting the world capped. Nope PvP.

In PvE there is something new around every corner, in PvP just some crazed warrior who thinks he can whack his way through Shield of Judgement and Zealots Fire. I frankly think Anet wanted to make so much more out of PvP and tried to the point of nerfing so much PvE to please the PvPers that they almost lost the PvEs. Trying to save one they almost lost both and since PvE is paying the rent it is going to win. I think the idea was to turn on the PvE community to PvP and they took a look and said bring on the monsters and the loot. Give me a good old dungeon. And look what we got in GWEN. Thank you Anet.

Longasc · Sep 12, 2007, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkrunner25

The #1 reason PvP is in decline/near death is very simple and has been mentioned before.

The longer this game runs the less accessible PvP becomes to new players.

(...)

Sorry for the long read I got carried away.

-Phantom.

But you are absolutely right.

Regarding the fact that GW might have been planned as a PvP game initially, it developed much more into a PvE MMO over time.

BTW: Viagra was originally invented to treat pulmonary arterial hypertension, not erectile dysfunctions. And see for what it is used nowadays.

GW is like Viagra. Disclaimer: I am a PvEer, and I did not say that PvE can be compared to an erectile dysfunction.

Yanman.be · Sep 12, 2007, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Which came first: the chicken or the egg?

Answer: Doesn't matter, they're both tasty.

Did A.Net tried to make an egg or a chicken? Perhaps the egg hatched, or the chicken laid an egg?

arcanemacabre · Sep 12, 2007, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

Did A.Net tried to make an egg or a chicken? Perhaps the egg hatched, or the chicken laid an egg?

People seem to think it matters which concept the creators of Anet had originally mulled around their heads before throwing it together. Either they thought "Hey, let's make this a competitive game, oh and let's throw in some of that PvE stuff some people enjoy" or "Hey let's make this a cooperative game where people can kill monsters, and let's throw in some of that PvP stuff."

My point is it doesn't matter which happened because they support both.

DreamWind · Sep 12, 2007, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkrunner25

The longer this game runs the less accessible PvP becomes to new players.

This is a large factor. It is definately not the only factor though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

My point is it doesn't matter which happened because they support both.

It matters because support for one will surely outweigh the support of the other. There is a reason no more Guild Wars championships are being held, and PvP now has auto tournaments (so Anet can devote it resources elsewhere).

This topic has been discussed for ages, but its very relevant because of Guild Wars 2. We haven't seen Anet as competent enough to make both sides happy at the same time in GW1, so why should we expect any more in GW2?

Sparks Dawnbringer · Sep 12, 2007, 11:01 AM // 11:01

I've been pretty happy with the content of GWEN. And have had quite a good time playing it.

I must admit that in the old areas I often avoided the Elite areas because the people there were too rigid, bossy and nasty. I want to enjoy myself not listen to someone scream at a poor kid because he talked to the wrong person. I always wanted to go the the elite areas with one friend and heros.

You are correct about the weapon skins and armor. I think they forget just how demanding we are. They set the bar too high for themselves. They showed us what they could do. Now, I think they are all onto GW2 and GWEN is really not their focus. I actually think some of the best armor is in the first game with one or two good ones thrown in here and there in the following campaigns. I do love my shaded spectacles though. But all those male dervishes running around in dresses make me laugh to no end. And I guess those ugly looking lava weapons are the only ones we can put in the Hall of Monuments.

In fact I would believe that GWEN was always a part of the first campaign that never got fully developed.

Ghost Recon · Sep 12, 2007, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by warren_kn

Um, whereabouts in Europe? I have yet to see televised video game tournaments. Mind you I DID see that a televised backgammon tournament was on TV the other day so it does prove that you can put any crap on and it will have an audience so video game tournaments can't be too far away. However, as someone already said, it will never be a sport, CPL or otherwise.

In Germany they show e-sports on channel GIGA II and in the UK Xleague.tv Sky channel 279. It will be classed as a sport in time, pro gamers are making huge amount of money. Clan TraNqUiL have made 3.5 million dollars playing Gears of War, MLG have recently signed up 13 new gamers this year for a contract worth $250,000 each. With big companies sponsoring people as well it is just a matter of time that it becomes an official sport.

Also there is great coverage on the net for all the competitions around the world.